Episode 160 | Inside ABC and Meta’s $115 Million Bet on Construction Talent with Joel Thames

[00:19] Scott:

Welcome, everybody, to the next episode of the Mobilization Mindset. My name is Scott Peper, CEO and founder of Mobilization Funding, and today we’re gonna be talking all about workforce development and construction. I have a great guest here today, and an even better program. ABC and Meta have made $115 million bet on the construction talent. The program is called America’s Workforce Academy, and it’s a partnership between Meta and ABC. And we have a great guest today. His name is Joel Timms. He is the VP of health, safety, environment, and workforce development with ABC. Now, you can find this episode and all of our episodes on our YouTube channel at Mobilization Funding. You can also find them at mobilizationfunding.com, along with our cash flow tool and other all kinds of great information and content related to construction. Joel, welcome to the show.

[01:11] Joel:

Thank you. Good morning, Scott. How’s it going over there?

[01:14] Scott:

It’s going well, man. It’s going great.

[01:16] Joel:

Good.

[01:16] Scott:

I’m excited to have you on. As you know, um, we were talking beforehand, I have a real passion for bringing the young f- workforce, young folks, younger folks into the workforce. It’s an obvious problem we have in construction. The, the workforce is aging out. I know local ABC chapters all over, and the national ABC chapters have been well-focused on that. Um, and candidly, in our business, we hear that is the biggest concern for CEOs and executives of all different subcontractors, to find these folks and bring them on board, and finding new ways to educate, train, and teach them. And I think what you guys have built here is pretty awesome, so I’m glad you’re coming on the show to talk about it.

[01:56] Joel:

Yeah. Uh, something that we’re super interested in as well, um, you know, what Meta has done with this program, and we’ll get into details throughout the episode, but, uh, I think it’s transformational, and I think it’s something that we can all use moving forward in different forms and fashions. And, you know, you brought up the workforce shortage. Um, it never goes away, you know? This is just a… I- it’s a projection, and it’s something that we constantly deal with. So we may do a fantastic job this year, but there’s still gonna be another workforce shortage next year. So we’re hoping that this can continue to feed folks to us for years to come, and those guys can benefit from it and go into different facets of the industry. So we’re really looking forward to it.

[02:33] Scott:

Yeah. So let’s talk about it. So tell, tell us what it is. So Meta and ABC have combined together to bring a new opportunity, and w- tell us what that op- what that opportunity is.

[02:44] Joel:

So when you look at what ABC has done for the, you know, many, many years, it’s training folks to go into specific crafts or trades. A lot of those crafts and trades focus around commercial construction. Um, many of them focus around industrial construction. And what we’ve seen in the past few years is our members are going to work on data centers, and it’s kind of a combination of both. Uh, you’ve got somewhat of a commercial structure, uh, but it has industrial facets to it, from cooling water systems to power plants that, that push these things. And so we found ourselves kind of in the middle of that. And a lot of industrial contractors work on those sites, a lot of commercial contractors work on those sites, but there was never, um, a specific training program that aligned with the exact work that was going on in the data center. So when Meta approached us, it was, “Hey, we’ve gotta… We gotta do two things.

[03:38] Joel:

We gotta generate interest in construction,” because what these hyperscalers are doing over the next 5 to 10, maybe even, you know, more years, um, it’s gonna, it’s gonna need m- many more workers than we have. It’s the same story as it was with LNG plants five years ago and refineries 15 years ago. It’s the same story, but it’s a different type of work. And so what they did is said, “Look, we’re gonna help recruit, and we’re gonna, we’re gonna drive interest to this industry, to this new industry. Uh, we need you guys to train them.” And so we’ve been working with them for the past few months, um, to develop a program to not only introduce new people to the industry, but give them some sort of, some sort of training, uh, and credentials to where they can be productive day one on the job site. Um, for many years, man, we’ve, we’ve hired folks that have never stepped foot on a job site, and we expect them to be productive and safe, and that’s just not always, not always the way.

[04:36] Joel:

And so our hopes for the program is that it introduces thousands of people to this industry, where they may not have known about it in the past, but gives them a foundation to be productive day one on the job site. We understand that in a short time we can’t turn out thousands of journeymen, but we can introduce people to the industry and give them a good, safe foundation, um, allow them to be productive and safe on the job site, uh, at the very beginning. So that’s, that’s the overall goal for this.

[05:04] Scott:

I love it. Well, a $115 million is a significant investment. What does that money actually go toward, and why did it make sense to build a program with scholarships and housing and stipends, instead of a more traditional recruiting and apprentice push?

[05:20] Joel:

Good question. Um, it’s a very broad answer, so, so bear with me. I’ve, I’ve been involved in workforce development in different fashions for about 20 years, and there’s a few questions that surround successful programs. Um, one of them is, where are we gonna get the people? How do we generate interest? Um, and so what has normally been… Construction’s usually been, “I don’t wanna go to school anymore. I like working with my hands. How do I get involved into an industry and make money without going to a four-year college?” And so we, we get these people that wanna go into construction, and then we enroll them in some type of lengthy two to four-year apprenticeship training. So how do we… You know, we’re telling them they don’t need to go to s- to any kind of four-year education, but then we put them in a two to four-year apprenticeship. And so- Where are we gonna find the people? Um, who is gonna employ them?

[06:12] Joel:

For many years, ABC has done a fantastic job at recruiting high school students, uh, military, veterans, Guard, Reserve, uh, people with second chance programs. Um, you know, we have eight or 10 different entry points that we recruit from, but if you go through the recruiting process and you don’t immediately align them with a job, you can lose them. So y- you put them in a program, you train them, and then they have to wait two or three months to get employed, a lot of times we lose those folks. So how do we put them in training and employ them immediately? And then the last thing is who’s gonna pay for it, right? Um, I think i- if money wasn’t an, an object or it wasn’t an issue, we would have robust programs all over the place.

[06:58] Joel:

Um, many times you take somebody that’s in a second chance program or who, let’s say, was in the military, um, they’re currently getting paid and you’re asking them to stop working and stop getting paid to go to a lengthy program in order to get a job maybe later. And so this program solves all that. Meta really stepped up, and back to your question on the $115 million, it goes to all of those things. It goes to, uh, extensive recruiting methods. Um, we’ve partnered up with a company called CBRE who is in the real estate and construction space. Um, they launched a similar program with fiber optics with Meta, and so when we were talking to Meta they said, “You guys really need to reach out to CBRE because, um, they’re, they’re kind of already doing this in a different space.” And so we partnered with CBRE and they’re handling all the intake, uh, they’re handling all the screening processes from drug testing to interviews to aptitude tests.

[07:56] Joel:

Um, you know, we, we have thousands and thousands of applicants for this program, and they’re going through and handling all the screening so that the folks that enter training are highly vetted. Um, you know, a low retention rate for this program to, in my opinion, would be a failure, so we want to get the folks that we know can actually finish this program, that we’re not putting folks into a four-week course and they leave after week one or week two. And so CBRE is handling all that. They’re handling the logistics on travel. Um, if these folks wanna, let’s say they live in Tennessee and they wanna work in Louisiana at the data center, they may have to travel to training. Um, Meta is paying them $25 an hour as a stipend, um, while they’re in training, so it solves that other problem I was previously talking about where if they have to quit their job to get in here, they’re gonna be getting paid to go to training. Um, it pays for their hotel, it pays for all their meals.

[08:53] Joel:

Um, that, that’s in addition to the stipend, and then it’ll pay the tuition. The tuition, to be honest, is one of the smallest pieces of the pie. Um, with ABC and the way that we’ve done training over the years, we’ve really got that model, um, down pat and pretty efficient. And so, um, it’ll pay for tuition, pays for travel, pays for housing, pays the stipend. Um, it really covers everything. So, uh-

[09:16] Scott:

That’s awesome.

[09:17] Joel:

Yeah, when you look at it, it is a big number, um, but it’s a big expense as well and, and they’ve stepped up and agreed to pay the tab on it, so it’s, it’s really nice to have that.

[09:26] Scott:

Well, when you’re bringing in thousands of folks into this program, it’s not hard to spend $115 million teaching, training, educating, paying for all the things you outlined. So let me ask you, what, what was the, the real pain point or problem that Meta felt such that it made it and pushed them into finding a partner, creating a solution to solve for? I mean, it’s a great program. It, like you said, it’s been a, it’s been a shortage for a long time, but Meta stepping into this, what was their problem and pain point that they were feeling?

[09:58] Joel:

I don’t, I don’t think they had a problem. Um, they, they may some, say something differently. I don’t think there was an existing problem. I think they’re just forecasting and looking ahead and saying, “Hey, we want to expand. We want to build more.” They know that other hyperscalers are doing the same thing. Um, and just looking at the numbers and looking at our workforce shortage projections, uh, I think they just knew they had to do something. And in talking with them, I spent three days with them this week, and talking with them, they’re, they’re not only interested in solving that problem. You know, there’s a lot of disruption in the data center space and in communities. They’re trying to solve all of that with this. So not only getting people to fill the workforce shortage, but it’s like how do we keep jobs local to these data centers?

[10:43] Joel:

Like, how do we, how do we please these communities with training their local people to go to work here instead of bringing in people, um, you know, from outside of the region or the state? And so, um, you know, that, that investment, it really goes a long way and it covers a lot of different things. It’s not just a training perspective of it.

[11:00] Scott:

Yeah. So, so what were the things that you learned from the CBRE folks that allowed them to im- help you implement this program to where you feel like it’s gonna be a success and you’re actually gonna be able to attract this younger workforce into construction? Hopefully this isn’t just a quick little burst and it’s actually builds a whole new foundation and sustainable construction worker.

[11:25] Joel:

CBRE was instrumental in their, I would say, tracking and their ability to stay in touch with these thousands upon thousands of applicants. Um, you know, as soon as Meta made the announcement, we had thousands of people apply immediately, like overnight, and it’s kind of interesting. We were talking earlier this morning, you know, if ABC were to go make that statement versus Meta making that statement, you know, it’s, it’s almost attracting, uh, a new generation of folks that are interested in AI. They’re, they’re interested in this whole data center thing and, um, and so they, they were able to attract a group that we’ve never been able to attract. And what CBRE does is they’re able to house all of that data. Um, they’re giving us a breakdown on who has applied down to what zip code- They came from.

[12:15] Joel:

And so circling back to the, to the, the amount of this investment, um, and, and speaking with Meta this week, if we can house this training regionally and put people in it regionally where they don’t necessarily have to travel as far, or maybe they get to go home on the weekends and they’re not spending seven nights of hotel. And, you know, if, if we can do this right, and, and they told us that if, if we end up saving money and we don’t spend as much as we thought, we’re not taking that money back. We’re just gonna train more people. And I guess through CBRE’s process of being able to pinpoint that data as where are they applying from, where’s the biggest demand, and I can tell you this, that expansion is on the horizon. They’ve come to us and said, “We’re gonna start with these three locations,” ’cause that’s where the saturation of applicants is. But in my opinion, I think they’re looking at the data further, like, “Okay, where can we go next?

[13:12] Joel:

Where can we go next?” Because I think the money is gonna spread further than we originally expected, ’cause now we’re taking CBRE’s data and we’re targeting those, those hotspots. And what’s interesting is when we first started this conversation, we aligned our chapters on a map, and we overlaid it with Meta’s current job sites, and it is, it’s really cool to see. I’m, I’m sure we can get you that as a, as a graphic. But where they’re building sites across the country, we have local chapters that are very close to that. So we’re taking that data, we’re lining it up with the folks that are applying, and it’s like, man, we have training and a job in these people’s backyard. Um, and so that’s, that’s where CBRE comes in. They’ve got the relationships with the, um, travel and the logistics folks that are helping, um, line up all the, uh, you know, the logistics for students to get to training and stay in training.

[14:06] Joel:

Um, they told us on this other program, they’re working with hotels, they’re offering, uh, free dry cleaning for the students, they’re putting pool tables in the lobby. I mean, they’re trying to make this a world-class experience to try to retain as many folks as possible. And then lastly, uh, and this was a question all along, CBRE is actually gonna hire them as a W-2 employee while they’re in training. So, um, i- instead of being 1099 and, you know, slapping these folks with taxes at the end of the year, they’re gonna go ahead and put them on payroll, onboard them, and they will not go to training unless they have a job offer from a contractor beforehand. And so that’s where they’ve been beneficial. Man, they’ve worked in this space before. Uh, they were familiar with it. And as ABC, that was kind of our pinch point. When we looked at it as a generic idea, we…

[14:58] Joel:

That was what we said is like, “Where are we gonna get the folks from, and how are we gonna keep them engaged throughout this process and get them to training?” Because our chapters do a great job training, um, but we’ve never had to do something like this where we’re flying people across the country and putting them in housing and, you know, trying to figure out their tax burdens and things like that. So CBRE’s been extremely helpful on that front.

[15:23] Scott:

And so with the partnerships that you already have in your local chapters, you’re gonna be able to help find these jobs with contractors that are members directly? Is that how the placements are working?

[15:33] Joel:

So this, this first cohort, which starts in November, Meta wanted to… You know, they didn’t wanna go train X amount of people and only have jobs for, you know, a number significantly less from that. They, they wanted to make sure, like we were talking earlier, it’s, it’s super important that these folks go straight to work when they finish the training. And so they went out, and they polled contractors working on their sites. Some of them were our members, some of them were not, some of them were merit shops, some of them were union. Um, we don’t care where they go, as long as they get employed on a Meta site in this first cohort. So they polled their folks working, uh, on their sites, they gave us a number, and that’s what we’re gonna start off with in November and December of this year. Um, so to answer your question, yes, but it’s not us doing that. It’s Meta and CBRE lining up jobs on Meta sites.

[16:25] Joel:

Now, they’ve told us in the future that they’re gonna continue doing this even if the folks don’t land on one of their sites, because they know, and you’re familiar with this as well, once they get into the industry, they’ll probably work for multiple contractors in different facets of construction. Uh, but for the time being, they want this first wave of students to land, uh, on their sites.

[16:47] Scott:

I love it. So right now, the program’s launching in Indiana, Louisiana, Ohio, and Texas, right?

[16:53] Joel:

Correct. Correct.

[16:54] Scott:

Now, how did you guy- Is that just happened to be where the majority of these data centers are for, or data centers being built are for Meta? Is that kinda how you honed in on that area?

[17:03] Joel:

Yeah.

[17:03] Scott:

Or is there something more specific about those spots?

[17:06] Joel:

It, it’s a couple things, and I’ll clarify. ABC’s portion is three locations. The Ohio location is, um, CBRE’s, um, fiber training program. Um, so that’s the, that’s the training that CBRE was doing with Meta before we came along. Um, it’s to train fiber optics tech- technicians, and that’s based out of Ohio. For our three locations, when, when Meta came to us, they said, “Can you get with your members and give us a capacity of each location?” And so we did that. We did a survey. We talked to our chapter presidents, and they all kinda said, “Hey, I can train 50. I can train 500.” And, and we gathered all the data of what our chapters could currently handle, and we turned that over to Meta. They aligned that kinda capacity survey with where their biggest needs were on their projects, and that’s how we ended up with Houston, Louisiana, and the Indiana chapters.

[18:03] Scott:

I love that.

[18:04] Joel:

Yeah.

[18:05] Scott:

So for the small and midsize contractors out there, um, and they’re thinking about that, and small and midsize, I’m thinking, you know, anywhere even under $100 million in revenue. They might not be able to partner directly with Meta to solve an issue like this, but what can they take from this program that they can start to implement themselves? That if you, you as thinking with your, with the ABC hat on now and talking to the chapter, your folks, what things that they’ve been trying to do are you learning from this program that you can now teach them and train them so they can create their own mini programs to track the same workforce and for themselves?

[18:42] Joel:

Um, they c- well, first of all, they can participate in this. You know-

[18:46] Scott:

Oh, yeah

[18:46] Joel:

… Meta’s gonna eventually allow anybody to hire from this program. Uh, and I think that’s a good opportunity to get involved and to get people that already have credentials. And I’m sure we’ll get into the curriculum later, but what, what they’re gonna offer is a predic- a curriculum and a certification that is widely accepted. So even if they’re hiring two or three people a month, they could get two or three really good folks from, from this program. Um, but what they can take away is, I would say, the model of this, is that I, I don’t think we can go anymore and grab people that have never stepped foot, let’s say, in a chemical plant or on a commercial job site or on a data center, and put them in that space and expect them to be productive.

[19:30] Joel:

I think companies and industries have to step up and offer something similar to this, whereas maybe you can’t pay them, you know, 40 hours a week, maybe you can’t fly them across the country, but we’ve gotta figure out how to give them an education. Um, we’re working with our partners at NCCER on the curriculum, and, uh, I was having a conversation with one of their employees the other day. We’ve gotta do a better job, and I think small contractors are very important to this. We have to do a better job at the state level in the Department of Education, um, to put some of these programs into high schools. Um, in Louisiana, where I’m currently located, you know, we’re heavily involved with the State Department of Ed. Um, they’re offering, high schools are offering the classes that our contractors, um, will receive on job sites. We’re able to put 18, 19-year-olds to work straight out of high school.

[20:22] Joel:

And so I think that’s an important thing and, and we have a meeting on that coming up where we’re gonna try to get our members more involved in those states. But I think anybody can do that. A small contractor can do that. If they don’t have the, the dollars, they don’t have the capacity to do the training, they need to spend time in, in helping us work with the, with the State Department of Eds to start, you know, teaching these courses at an earlier level. I think that’s a disservice. You know, back in the day when you and I went through school, there was shop class, there was welding, there was all these options.

[20:50] Joel:

And for a while-

[20:51] Scott:

There you go

[20:51] Joel:

… that went away, and they were funneling everybody to four-year universities. But we’re starting to see that shift back, and we just have to make sure that we’re there for the conversation and that we can put those credentials into those programs that we actually accept and receive.

[21:06] Scott:

Yeah. You know, the workforce shortage has been talked about for years, and it seems like it’s getting some more traction now. This movement is getting bigger and bigger. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it’s got more and more attention now? W- and, um, and in your opinion, does it?

[21:24] Joel:

Oh, it definitely does. I mean, anytime Meta puts something out there, it seems to, uh, it seems to take off, and I think that’s been good for, for us. Um, I’ve always said that ABC is the best-kept secret in the industry. You know, I, I know what we can do. I know what we’re capable of. We just didn’t have that footprint, um, today that people like Meta have. Um, I hate to sound old, but man, social media has really changed things. The, the people that are out there welding and operating cranes and heavy equipment and, and working in this space are now posting and have thousands of followers and, you know, it’s, it’s become cool to work in this, this industry, and there’s a huge following of people like that. And, um, you know, not to blame everything on social media, but I, I think a lot of it has to do with that, that now…

[22:11] Joel:

In the past, a student never knew what did a crane operator do all day, or, you know, what did a tower crane operator do and the view that they have from working from, from such heights. And, uh, I think it’s just more accessible than it is now. Another thing, people learn differently, and we don’t have to go down this path too long. But, um, you know, look at what the kids are doing now. They’re watching videos on their phone, and if it lasts more than 10 or 15 seconds, they swipe to the next one. And so being able to get in there and give them these little spurts of, of cool things that are coming from, from the trades, I think, has been good for us, just kinda shifting the whole method on how we project what it’s like to work in construction.

[22:53] Scott:

Yeah, and I think k- I think folks in construction, they have a, an idea too. They don’t, they don’t know how much they can actually make-

[22:59] Joel:

True

[22:59] Scott:

… you know, and some of the opportunities. And I mean, we… looking at some of the data, you can make more getting right into construction, significantly more, um, starting salaries and over the cor- first four, five, six years of business, um, being in the industry than you can with a, with your average four-year degree.

[23:16] Joel:

I agree.

[23:16] Scott:

And it’s pretty significant. I think the da- like, the data I saw was, you know, s- salaries between 60 and $70,000, again, depending on geographical locations. But your speed to a $100,000 income is even faster in the construction industry than it is with a four-year degree from any big state school or any school.

[23:37] Joel:

I agree.

[23:37] Scott:

Yeah.

[23:37] Joel:

I agree. Uh, you know, I spent time in the past, um, when I was working with a contractor, talking with parents. I, I remember one time I was in a, a gym at a high school, like teacher-parent night, and I was on the microphone explaining to parents how much, how much they can make. So yeah, it definitely has changed. It depends on region, depends on what you’re doing. It depends on if you’re willing to travel. Um, but those things can add up to a six-figure income very quick. You know, in the past, I feel like we’ve done a good job as an industry allowing people to quickly make money. I think we’ve done a poor job, uh, explaining what do you do with it. What are taxes? What is financial literacy? And so this week we, we had a big group meeting to develop, finish developing this curriculum.

[24:22] Joel:

Uh, and a part of the curriculum is financial literacy, ’cause, um, I think it’s a disservice to, to train these kids or these students And put them in the real world making, you know, 70, 80, $100,000 and not explaining to them, um, that you can’t go out and finance all those things that you thought you wanted, that, um, you know, you probably don’t need to buy that. You don’t need to do this. This is how you balance a checkbook. This is how you access banking online. And so we’ve got a huge portion of this training class that’s gonna focus on financial literacy.

[24:51] Scott:

You know, I have a great friend, uh, his name’s Herb Sargent, and he talked about one of the training programs they have at their company. You know, they’re a 100-year-old business out of Maine, civil contractor, but one of the things he mentioned was a lot of the kids didn’t know, uh, how to grocery shop properly, how to do… uh, how to check into a hotel. And they, they would teach and train and educate them as part of their workforce development and part of their recruiting tactics, and he said it was amazing. And they did exactly those things you just mentioned, and it… and their retention rates and attraction to the younger force has been tremen- tremendous, especially in the last five to 10 years.

[25:26] Joel:

That actually came up yesterday in the curriculum meeting, was, uh, the energy drinks, the Monsters are not your friend. And so we have a little piece in this curriculum that talks about, uh, nutrition and hydration and the things, ’cause they are working in the elements, man. The last thing we need them to do-

[25:40] Scott:

Oh, yeah

[25:41] Joel:

… is drink three Monsters before they get to the job site.

[25:44] Scott:

Exactly.

[25:45] Joel:

Yeah.

[25:46] Scott:

Well, let me ask you, how does someone that’s paying attention to this, hears about it, maybe they’ve seen it on social media and now they’re checking it on this podcast, who’s the right… what, what, what do they need to do or have to be able to qualify and apply for this?

[26:00] Joel:

They don’t need anything to apply. Um, as far as what it takes to get from application to actually in a seat in a training class, there is… it’s a pretty lengthy and stringent, um, onboarding and screening process. I could tell you this, first thing is drug test. Uh, they’re gonna drug test before they even, you know, that’s gonna be the first step of the process. Gotta start there. And then if they do land with a contractor and they get a job offer, they’re gonna have to take another one. And I think if anybody’s listening to this, I’ve been in the industry a long time, there are random drug tests as well. So just ’cause you made it past those first couple doesn’t mean that you’re not gonna get drug tested again. And I think as far as our safety goes and productivity goes, we have to ensure that they, they understand that moving forward, that that doesn’t really have a place in, in this whole space.

[26:47] Joel:

The other thing, um, and the application process, the screening process, uh, it leans heavily on attitude. We understand that you’re not coming in with a high level of skills. We know that you don’t have a specific skill set. The purpose of the program is to give them a, you know, a wide variety of ideas and places that they can potentially go with their career. So it’s really just about attitude, if that makes sense. We’re looking for the right person that’s willing to do anything. Um, you know, I made the comment in, in the meeting the other day, they said, “What’s one thing you would tell new people?” And I said, “Never say, ‘That’s not my job.'” You know, if somebody asks you to do something, go do it. Go learn about whatever it is they’re asking you to do, but I think to stand back and say, “That’s not in my job description,” I think, I think that’ll get you, uh, you know, moved to the back of the line first.

[27:38] Scott:

Yeah, it doesn’t help, that’s for sure.

[27:39] Joel:

No, it does not help. Does not help.

[27:41] Scott:

All right, I have one more question for you, and it relates to something we’re very passionate about, which is cash flow. And the reason I’m bringing that up is we were talking about $115 million program coming from outside the industry to help solve a big problem that we’ve known in this industry for 10 years. How do you think ABC or Meta or the folks building these data centers and any other project can start to move cash to the commercial construction world faster, such that they can actually make their margins and not… and maintain the cash flows they have so they can pay for programs like this at a smaller scale? This is a great program on a big scale, but you and I both know, if we can’t block and tackle business by business, community by community, we’re not gonna solve this problem. So, so what do you think can be done about that?

[28:31] Joel:

I, I think explaining the ROI on these programs. Um, you know, workforce development’s very hard to put a number on. You know how much, uh, uh, I’m spending, you know, in this case, $115 million, what am I, what am I getting for that? But you really have to break it down, and I’ve done a good job of that in the past. Um, onboarding is expensive. Um, turnover is extremely expensive. So having somebody that goes to work that understands what they’re getting into, uh, I think is paramount because, um, keeping a high level of retention is key, uh, in that, in that turnover conversation. And so I think you just have to break it down company by company. What is it costing me to onboard? What is it costing me to train? And if I were to take that money and put it into a program like this, would, would that better serve me?

[29:18] Joel:

You know, some of the kids that were going through the initial stages of CBR-E’s program, they got to training and they realized that they would have to travel potentially for a job or, uh, they didn’t realize they were working outside. They thought they were going, you know, white collar inside the finished data center to do programming and things like that. So I think, you know, figuring all those things out and making sure that the people you put into the training, uh, actually yields a high retention of graduates on the back end, and then kind of comparing, “Okay, the cost of this is X, and my turnover is costing me this.” And, you know, turnover is weird because it’s not just people that quit or go to other contracts. It’s people that get hurt.

[29:58] Joel:

Um, it’s people that, you know, come in and have issues with, um, uh, I’m trying to think how to, how to say this, you know, polit- politically correct, but, you know, there’s, there’s some folks that come in and, and generate problems and, uh, you end up losing other people on the team. You end up losing good people. And so making sure you get, uh, the right person with the right fit that has the correct understanding of what they’re actually walking into, um, I think can save companies tons of money. And so they just gotta compare that. And each company is different. Um, the company I worked for in the past, like we had our onboarding dialed in pretty tight. Um, but, you know, allowing … uh, a highly trained or at least highly vetted person to come in, it, it produced a much higher retention than it did just hiring off the streets. So I think they just have to compare those numbers and then make the decision to cash flow the training programs upfront.

[30:52] Scott:

Yeah. Do you think there’s a way that the actual projects that are being produced at the owner level or bank and lending level could start to move money on the project to the subcontractor faster?

[31:04] Joel:

That’s, that’s been happening. That’s been happening for years, at least in the industrial space. There’s, there’s multiple owner groups, uh, that exist, very similar to ABC, where the groups of owners, let’s say in a region, they get together and say, “Here’s the problems we’re having. We need to increase training on X.” Um, and they actually fund a lot of the trainings that ABC does. And so ABC’s relationships with the owners, it varies across the nation, but, um, there’s a lot of owner groups out there that have been tackling this. But if it doesn’t align the trainee with employment immediately, and I think that’s really where it comes in is timing of all these efforts. If you just throw money at it, but you don’t have any work to offer them, you know, it’s kinda pointless at that time. You’re gonna lose those folks to other industries or other regions.

[31:52] Joel:

So, um, I think just increasing that, increasing the owner groups, and increasing those, uh, correct conversations of, of timing and dollars and what’s important going on. Because, you know, look at the past 20 years, the work has changed. I mentioned it earlier, you know, 15, 20 years ago was heavy, heavy refinery. And then when we started these LNG projects, it’s like, “Okay, what are we gonna do? How do we train these?” And we made that adjustment, and now we’re just, we’re training for something different. But we need the owners to stay in touch with us, uh, as an organization and as an industry and tell us what’s important, that way we’re constantly providing the proper, you know, proper training to the folks before they get on site.

[32:30] Scott:

Yeah. All right, Joel, la- this is the last question this time.

[32:35] Joel:

That’s good. It’s good.

[32:36] Scott:

A- all right, if you had to convince one skeptical contractor that investing in workforce training is worth their time and money right now, what would you say to them?

[32:47] Joel:

Go through a bad lawsuit with a bad employee and tell me what’s more expensive. So now that’s, that’s-

[32:53] Scott:

[laughs] Yeah

[32:53] Joel:

… that’s the easy answer, right? But I think providing long, long-lasting careers for these people is, is paramount to the situation, but I think that provides such a return on investment. When you can keep someone, promote from within, you have leaders now that understand your culture, they understand your policies, your procedures, they know how the company and the industry works. And I, I’ve seen that in my past life, that promoting from within, um, extremely reduces bad retention rates, um, it increases morale. It, it keeps people engaged to where the only people you’re bringing in are new folks to the industry. You get them trained up. And so I, I would tell them that, is to take a step off into this and, and see what happens, you know? It, it’s hard to explain it in dollars and cents. You know, from, from our perspective, we can tell you that it’s beneficial, but I think until you dive off in it and, uh, and, and you play with it a little bit, it, it’s just hard to see.

[33:54] Scott:

I agree with you. You know, if I were to add one thing to that, too, I would say if, as you’re, if you’re a skeptical contractor out there listening, it’s important for you to continue to teach, train, and educate yourself, too. You gotta know how to run a great business if you wanna have great people and great employees and great success.

[34:12] Joel:

Yep, agreed.

[34:13] Scott:

And so it’s okay to keep learning, and you need to. Um-

[34:15] Joel:

Yeah

[34:15] Scott:

… it’s hard, it’s hard to work in construction, and one day you wake up and all of a sudden you’re running a business, and you’re not doing construction anymore.

[34:23] Joel:

Right.

[34:23] Scott:

And it gets really, it gets difficult.

[34:24] Joel:

It is.

[34:24] Scott:

And so those are the times, I think-

[34:26] Joel:

It is

[34:26] Scott:

… that help people really progress.

[34:29] Joel:

It is. Some of, some of the data I used to look at was, let’s look at all the injuries we’ve had over a certain amount of time, and you look at their tenure with the company, and more times than not, it was a, a, it was an employee with less than one year of service with our company that was getting injured or getting into these situations. And so we started looking at that, and it’s like, “Okay, we have to promote from within. We have to keep people on payroll longer.” Uh, it’s better for us as a company from an injury perspective, uh, from risk management and workers’ comp perspective, but it’s better for that individual that they have longevity, they actually have a career path.

[35:04] Joel:

Because you and I both know that the whole career path thing in construction is, uh, is a downside to us, um, advertising this to a new person, because they think that, “Oh, I have to work for this company and this company.” But in reality, if, if we can keep them working and keep them engaged and, uh, and continue to level up their training, um, they could stay with one contractor their entire career these days, and I think that’s important.

[35:28] Scott:

Totally, Joel.

[35:29] Joel:

Yep.

[35:30] Scott:

Well, Joel, man, I really appreciate you coming on the show-

[35:32] Joel:

Yeah

[35:32] Scott:

… sharing the news about the program, about ABC. Uh, bringing and attracting more people to the overall construction industry, it’s something we’re really passionate about, and I’m looking forward to seeing how this program goes and how they, uh, how successful it is.

[35:46] Joel:

Awesome. Thank you, Scott, and I enjoyed it.

[35:48] Scott:

So tell me, what’s the best way people can find you or ABC?

[35:52] Joel:

Anybody that’s listening that wants to apply, um, can follow the link that we’ll provide. Um, as far as reaching out to us, um, I, I guess we’ll share contact info with you. But I mean, we can answer more questions and, um, and, and continue the conversation for anybody who’s interested in getting involved.

[36:07] Scott:

Perfect, and we’ll put all of the show notes and everything here for everyone. Uh, yous can find the links wherever you like to watch your podcasts or listen to them, you can find all of the links and everything you need to know on there. Um, you can also find this episode on our Mobilization Funding YouTube channel and also mobilizationfunding.com. And until next time, everybody, I wish you all a great week, and may God bless you.

[36:31] Scott:

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