Construction Industry Archives - Mobilization Funding

Merchant cash advances, or MCAs, are loans that business owners usually look to in a crisis. Think of them as the equivalent to the business version of a paycheck advance loan with high interest and repayment terms that often do not align with what is best for the business. MCA’s are dangerous for most merchants but horrible for construction businesses, and we’ll explain why in this four-part blog series.

In our introduction to merchant cash advances, we will explain what a typical loan looks like and how the fees and costs are charged.

How MCAs Work

The basic requirements to qualify for an MCA are to submit an application that includes a business owner’s personal credit, social security number, business name, business address, and other simple information. Along with this application, they will submit four months of bank statements. Once the MCA lender gets those statements, they can evaluate the money this business receives through deposits. The MCA lenders may utilize different metrics, but they all end up with similar results. That result is that the loan or the advance amount they offer the business is close to the average amount of deposits the company has rolling through their account monthly.

For example, a business has an average of $200,000 in deposits. The lender will build out a repayment schedule for that $200,000, typically with a repayment period between six to twelve months. Before calculating the repayment period, the MCA lender needs to determine the “Factor Rate” they will charge for the loan. This Factor Rate will be the actual cost of the loan to the business. Factor Rates can vary depending on the company, business owner’s personal credit, industry, and other variables, but is typically between 35-50% for construction contractors.

So, with a quick math example, if an MCA lender gives a business $100,000, and the factor rate is 40, the company will repay them $140,000 over the loan term. If that term is 12 months, the interest or fees charged annually is 40%, but if the term is 6 months, the actual annual rate is 80%.

To determine the daily or weekly payment amount, the number of business days in the given period needs to be calculated (a typical month has 21 business days). If it’s a six-month term, they will take the $140,000 and divide it by the number of business days in that period.

6 months x 21 business days per month = 126 business days

$140,000 repayment / 126 business days = ~$1,111.11.

Now, $1,111.11 is the daily number that businesses will have deducted via ACH from their bank account.

Dangers of High-Interest Rates

These factors are a fixed fee or margin that businesses must pay back in addition to the amount they were advanced on the loan. One obvious issue is the loan is very costly in its short-term structure. Secondary to the cost, this loan is based on future receivables (the deposits they receive in their account), whether businesses receive that money or not. So, if companies don’t have enough future revenue to support the dollars they’re borrowing, it can be problematic when those loans need to be repaid—on a daily or weekly basis.

If you’re feeling stuck with payroll and vendor invoices, give us a call before resorting to a merchant cash advance. We’re here to help — (813) 712-3073

Click here to read part 2 of 4 of our Dangers of Merchant Cash Advances series.

In the second part of our series, we’re going to dive into the many ways businesses get hurt by taking out merchant cash advances.

The Repayment Structure of MCA Loans

Problem #1 – Typically, MCA lenders will require a daily or weekly payment that is automatically debited from the borrower’s account. Usually, construction companies are paid 30-60 days from when they invoice for work completed. So, a daily or weekly MCA repayment structure becomes a real problem quickly. It is always worrisome if revenue streams don’t match a payment plan when taking on debt.

Problem #2 – The price of debt to the amount of time to repay the loan AND the margin of the overall business. If a company sells its future receivables at a higher factor rate or at a higher dollar number than it makes in margin on sales, it will have an even bigger problem.

For example, an MCA lender approves a construction business for a $100,000 MCA loan, and the terms of the loan require the business to pay back a total of $140,000 (a 40% factor rate) in a twelve-month period. Let’s assume that the construction business works off a typical 20% gross margin. Now when the business generates $100,000 in revenue (the amount they just borrowed), and they only make a 20% margin, they will actually need $200,000 in revenue to generate enough margin of $40,000 to pay back a $100,000 loan. This example also assumes they remain disciplined enough to use the $100,000 they received from the MCA loan for revenue-generating activities and not to repay an old debt or put out a fire! IF the construction business used the $100,000 they received from the MCA loan for those types of things and they need to generate $140,000 of margin to repay the whole loan, then they would need $700,000 of revenue to produce $140,000 of margin ($140,000 / 20% margin).

See how quickly this can go bad?

The Effect of MCA Loans

The loan itself is fast and easy. (SIDE NOTE: In life, how many things that are fast and easy are actually good for you? 😊)

We discussed some of the problems, but practically what happens next is the worst part. The main reason for getting the loan in the first place (the “fire” or “issue” that needed to be solved) has now come and gone, but this loan and the daily or weekly repayment are here to stay. Slowly every week, the free cash flow of the business is sucked away, and as soon as one month but no more than 2-3 in the construction business, the same “fire” or “issue” arises again, but this time it is at least 2-3x worse. This time it is coupled with suppliers and vendors that have not been paid, or are so late to be paid, that they are causing stress to the business. The reasonable solutions for the company are limited, and the fact that there is an MCA payment every week is an issue for any other lenders. So, the MCA Lender comes to the rescue with another MCA loan solving the immediate pain, but in reality, it only pushes the problem down the road another 1-2 months.

How Customers Get Burned

First, it is vital to know the business owner is rarely talking to the direct lender. The network of folks selling MCA loans are brokers who are paid a commission. There is nothing wrong with a broker trying to find the right lender for a business owner and earning a commission for doing so as long as they represent all the options to the business owner and are upfront about who they are and what they are going to do.

Too often, brokers pretend to be the direct lender; instead, they shop your application around to the actual lenders to get the best possible rate for an MCA loan. Each of these lenders may pull the credit of the business and the business owner, which results in the credit being pulled dozens of times, and those credit pulls will cost the borrower 50 to 100 or more points off their personal credit score.

Don’t let your personal credit and business get flushed down the drain in exchange for a quick “fix.” Let our team light the way out of your financial pit by helping you find the right solution, whether through our program or just some good advice — (813) 712-3073

Click here to read part 3 of 4 of our Dangers of Merchant Cash Advances series.

In the third part of our series, we will illustrate the who’s behind the what. Be on the lookout for loan sharks dressed in brokers’ clothes. As we touched on briefly in Part 2, we will learn more about the broker world and their role in MCA loans.

Who Are Merchant Cash Advance Lenders?

A quick online search will show hundreds, if not thousands, of different websites advertising MCA loans. There are only about a dozen, or fewer, actual lenders. Merchant Cash Advance lenders selling these loans are typically brokers or independent agents with affiliations or relationships with these merchant cash advance lenders. Not all brokers are bad. We work with many brokers or referral sources that may work with clients to find the right solution.

However, a lot of brokers are just selling merchant cash advance loans. These brokers are people that businesses need to be cautious of because a merchant cash advance loan isn’t for everyone. Like our company, Mobilization Funding is not for everyone. We educate ourselves on different lending programs and options like merchant cash advance loans, factoring companies, and purchase order financing because we want to ensure we send people to the right source. We want what’s best for borrowers, even if we’re not a fit for them.

About Broker Networks

The broker network is directly responsible for the ultimate cost of the loan or, at a minimum, can significantly influence it. For example, the actual MCA lender will give the broker the actual cost of the loan and then provide them the ability to increase it within a range to increase their commission. The broker then has the option, or the ability, to markup that loan cost to the borrower. That markup can range from 2% to as much as 10% or more. This additional markup is how brokers make money on the loan transaction. The MCA lenders have set it up so the broker can make a lot of commission, and that commission drives behavior.

Some brokers might present themselves as the actual lender with their logo on application forms or how they introduce their product. Still, most MCA brokers are not the actual lender. In these cases, borrowers are just talking to a loan sales representative looking for a commission—not the source of the capital.

The Cost of the Markup

If a typical $100,000 loan has a 20% factor rate from the actual lender, and the broker marks up that loan an additional 10-15%, the loan cost is now 30-35%. That means the broker will make 10 or 15% of that $100,000 merchant cash advance.

This type of loan is not ideal for construction because the MCA lenders don’t understand the nature of the construction business. If they did, they would not make MCA loans to construction companies. Worse, if they do understand the construction business and don’t care, then that means they don’t care at all about the business or even try to do what is best for them. They are simply trying to do what is best for them at the expense of the construction business.

These brokers don’t lend based on the profit of a business but the total revenue. Construction companies must pay overhead like material suppliers, equipment vendors, and employees from that revenue.

There are less expensive and less painful options for getting ahead of your financial hump. Give us a call to map out your road to recovery — (813) 712-3073

Click here to read part 4 of 4 of our Dangers of Merchant Cash Advances series.

In the final part of our series, we tell the sad but true tale of a contractor who saw first-hand a merchant cash advance gone wrong. We recount this story (one of many) just to illustrate what happens when you only take the easy and fast way out!

Easy Money

A contractor in Texas—65 to 70 years old and shortly away from his retirement—had 40-plus years in business, been in the same town, worked with the same general contractors and project manager, and developed a great company. His business grew from $3 million to $10 million, and he went from several dozen employees to over 100.

This contractor did projects that were a few $100,000, up to a couple of million dollars. Then, one week, one of those projects had a little bit of a delay, nothing problematic, nothing different than folks see in a typical construction world. And it was going to be tight for payroll. So, what did he do? This business owner got a merchant cash advance.

He was offered a couple of hundred thousand dollars within a day was deposited into his account shortly after that. He had multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars going through his account, and he’d been in business for years and had a great relationship with his bank. It was easy to lend him money. He said, “Oh, my payroll is only $60,000 or $70,000 per period, but it is always good to have a little extra money.”

MCAs: Too Good to Be True

So, the contractor took the loan, and he started to repay that every day. The first and second months weren’t an issue, but suddenly, the amount of cash flow debited from his account over those two months strained his cash because contractors only get paid once a month.

Typically, contractors are paid that month for what they did and the costs they incurred 45 or 60 days ago. These payments are not in line with their current payroll or overhead. So, contractors are left floating payroll and expenses to material suppliers for six to eight weeks. These contractors must also have money left over to repay their MCA loan.

If businesses earn money out of sequence with an MCA’s repayment structure, they will have cash flow problems. This kink in cash flow will cause the business owner more stress than just missing payroll one week or having a challenging conversation with a material supplier, vendor, or employee.

This solution may sound like the worst-case scenario, but it’s not as bad as what happens two and a half months after getting an MCA loan.

Robbing Peter to Pay Paul, Except Peter Is Broke, Too

The contractor had the same payroll problems but now had two months’ worth of accounts payable issues too. He didn’t pay materials suppliers, and the vendors shut him off on the jobs. The suppliers were not going to be without payment, and they weren’t going to deliver.

Because the suppliers and vendors ultimately put liens on the project, the contractor had general contractors and their project managers calling him, wondering about the suppliers’ payments. The project managers also held back paying any money they owed the contractor for previous months’ invoices because of the liens placed on the project.

To add insult to injury, the merchant cash advances lenders are calling this contractor too, but this time, they’re not calling him and offering more money. They’re calling him because their daily debits are starting to bounce, and they’re getting frustrated and making threats. In addition, they are also calling the Project Managers and telling them to freeze payment because they are entitled to the money owed to the contractor.

Now, this contractor is in a world of hurt, and instead of just missing payroll, his whole business is now at risk. This financial crisis could have been mitigated if he had been educated on the dangers of MCA loans.

The Fast and Easy Path Is Usually the Wrong Way

The MCA lenders led the contractor down a path without giving them all the information—but it is up to businesses to stay informed.

Merchant Cash Advance loans are not smart solutions for construction companies. If a business is working with people who have the borrower’s best interests at heart, they will ask tough questions.

Then after careful deliberation, they will use this information to help assess the business so they can appropriately give it something beneficial to the company’s future. If receiving $100,000 feels too easy, be cautious. There are always strings attached. These strings just happen to appear a few days, weeks, or even months later.

At Mobilization Funding, we’re here to help you make better construction business decisions. Let’s chat about your options — (813) 712-3073

There’s a safety problem in American construction. It’s mental health.

A recent study concluded that 83% of construction workers have experienced a mental health issue. The construction industry has the 2nd highest suicide rate of any industry in America.

It’s time to DO YOUR PART to spread awareness and improve mental health in construction. Join our expert guests Randy Thompson and Michelle Walker as they share industry mental health insights and tips on how to build a safe environment and a caring culture in your business.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:

The factors that contribute mental health concerns in the construction industry
The warning signs to look for when someone may be experiencing a mental health event
How to build a culture of mental health safety and support
What resources are available and where to find them

Michelle Walker 00:04

And, and so, you know, it’s definitely it’s an issue in the industry. And you know, we’re such a safety focused industry. And yet, you know, when we kind of looked at the numbers and realize that probably about five times more construction workers were dying by suicide than were dying by physical on the job, causes that we all spend so much time, effort, energy money, investing in, it just really, you know, kind of shook me to my core and said, you know, this is it, this is a workforce that we say we care so much about, and that we’re so dependent on, we need to take better care of them from this aspect of mental health as well. And so that’s kind of how I got involved. And, and the rest is history. But, you know, the, the, the needle is moving in the industry, and so just thankful for more opportunities like this to continue to, you know, continue the conversation.

Scott Peper 00:58

Don’t miss Michelle, there’s stats and are really alarming. And I know there’s a focus in construction. But can you talk a little bit more in depth on why is it construction? More? Is it you talked about, you know, construction? is a male, heavily male industry? Is it just that or is there something about the industry itself that is really driving?

Michelle Walker

Yeah, there’s a lot about the industry. So kind of one of the soap boxes that I can get on is, when you talk to anybody in the industry, and you ask them, what’s your biggest challenge, they say, workforce, you know, trying to get get enough people to do the work. And so trying to take a step back from that and go, Well, why is there such a workforce problem, and part of it is the image of the industry. And when you kind of start lining up some of those image issues with some of these risk factors, it really shows how, you know, the industry really does have some work to do, to make it a safer place to be. So part of it is really just the people here doing the work. So men definitely higher risk, much higher risk for suicide than women. And obviously, construction has a very high male population. And then it’s the just the type of people that they are. So it’s the same thing that make the industry great. And make me love and admire every single person that’s on my crew that doing work every day. They’re tough. Perseverance, grit, determination, stick to it, all of that, all of those great traits that help get the job done. And you know, just make them admirable people can also be huge risk factors when, when you enter in a personal crisis, and addiction issue of mental health concern, all of those things, they’re not going to, they don’t want to ask for help, they’re gonna figure it out themselves, they don’t want to appear weak, they don’t want to let anybody down, they’re gonna just figure it out at all costs. And so that just really creates this kind of perfect storm for somebody to not seek help not be open to having a conversation about it. And then can lead to, you know, issues like self medicating and different substance abuse issues. So it can really kind of spiral out of control. And it has a lot to do with just that that population, again, all amazing, great characteristics until until they need to get help.

And then you just look at some of the other elements like the chronic pain associated from, you know, years of hard work or potential, you know, workplace injuries that weren’t properly treated, just schedules. So you know, very erratic scheduling, long hours, you know, that kind of those, those things don’t, aren’t really helpful for somebody who’s living with a mental illness and don’t really provide stability that they might need to be getting the treatment and help that they need to be seeking, time away from home. So remote work, so you know, away from support structures, possibly in environments that aren’t positive, you know, for healthy behaviors, you know, kind of some cyclical elements of the industry, you know, right now, obviously, everybody’s has more work to do than they, and they can, but there are periods of layoffs, which creates some financial instability, alcohol and substance abuse. So it’s kind of part of the culture pretty accepting of, you know, drinking being kind of part of a normal after work activity. And like we talked about before, if they’re not seeking help for things and you’re self medicating to get through them, the pressure of the industry, you know, there’s not a lot of room for screwing up. And if you do, it can be really catastrophic. And when you couple that with, you know, possible management gaps, so leadership gaps in knowing how to positively handle performance issues, corrections that can kind of exacerbate the feelings of letting people down if it’s not properly handled. So, again, you know, really a broad, a broad array, but they’re all

05:00

All things that we absolutely can manage better and do better and improve the industry in many ways, you know, kind of by addressing these things from the focus of mental health.

Scott Peper 05:12

This question, Randy, I go directly to you. Do you? Is there things that you feel I’m the there’s obviously Michelle done a great job of pointing out the gaps? And some of the macro issues, I would say, are there things that the industry employers are doing that actually make it worse? Or? Or is it they’re just not as are the things that they just need to do a better job of because of those macro factors? I guess my question really is, are you making it worse in any way?

Randy Thompson 05:41

Sure. It’s a great question. If we could just go back to slide five. Michelle, and I’ll answer your question, Scott. But I just wanted to highlight the fact that, you know, suicide is not simply a construction issue, there’s always a risk in identifying high risk groups, and focusing solely on why suicide behavior is so high.

06:04

Suicide is really a societal issue. It’s not just in construction, when we look at the data, year, over a year, there’s approximately 50,000 deaths annually suicide in the US. And I always compare that to, you know, if you think about a ball field, like like Fenway Park,

06:22

or where, you know, you have 50,000 seats, just think of the capacity of that park being full. And every year, that number of people die by suicide, not just in the construction industry, it’s over 14 over 14 people, for every 100,000, and about 132 suicides per day. So very impactful when we think about not just the actual suicides, but the attempts, the average is over 25 attempts, you know, per suicide, so it’s not the first time that that individual is actually attempted. So when you think about those numbers, and the deaths annually, it kind of gives you an idea of the impact that suicide has, is in the US.

07:09

And for every suicide, the data shows us that there’s approximately 100 or 110 people that are affected by that suicide, I’ll be the person’s family, the workforce, etc. So you can understand the ripple effect that suicide has on a community, let alone, you know, specifically in the construction industry. So I just wanted to highlight some of that, that data, it’s not specific to construction, there are higher risk groups, but suicide affects everyone. And even though organizations may not have had a suicide, it doesn’t mean that suicide is not an issue for them. Yeah, that’s a great point. And expanding,

07:49

expanding the topic out even farther from from, from suicide.

Autumn Sullivan 07:54

I think there’s something like 45 or 50 million Americans diagnosed with some form of a mental illness right now. So, you know, there’s definitely someone in your organization who is dealing with this on some level or another.

08:11

And I think it helps to know those numbers, right, because it can feel like it’s a lonely, that you’re alone in it, but it’s it’s incredibly common in our in our Well, you got you’re in Canada, but

08:24

I don’t know your numbers, but I know in America, it’s it’s it’s it’s prevalent. It’s very, very common. My Go ahead.

Randy Thompson

It is on you’re absolutely right. It is no different in Canada than it is in the US when we look at the numbers. For years, we’ve been reporting that one in four people will have a mental health crisis throughout their lifetime. And that number hasn’t changed in a long time. And it’s and that is a global statistic. So again, you may not have had a significant event with in your workplace. But I assure you that there are issues that people are dealing with that needs to be addressed, that are below, you know, below the surface that you may not even hear about. So having a focus on mental health is critically important, particularly for high risk groups. But even if you don’t fall within that category, doesn’t mean you’re not dealing with mental health issues, or that your staff aren’t dealing with mental health issues. So Scott, to attend to your question, I don’t think employers are making things worse. I think you’re there’s a risk of not doing anything. So to not recognize mental health as an issue is a problem. And not to not recognize suicide as an issue and construction is an even bigger problem. So there are some great things that employers are doing to address mental health but the number one the foundation of it for me is recognize that it’s an issue so that your your your employees and your staff feel safe to be able to talk about mental health, that it isn’t just that it’s recognized by the organization and that you’re actually providing supports for your for your employees.

09:58

be confidential.

10:00

or not to help them deal with some of these issues and mental health issues that they couldn’t be dealing with because there are a lot of them. You know, anything from financial distress, depression doesn’t have to be, you know, a clinical diagnosis for someone to need help. Right. So, employee assistance programs are often helpful. But you know, that’s just kind of the tip of the iceberg. What I talked organizations about is looking at what’s driving your cost when it comes to absenteeism, when it comes to drug cost, right, you have all that data available to you through your, through your insurance company, through your benefits provider, look at the data, what’s driving your costs, and then start building wellness or mental health programs around that in a very thoughtful way to simply check a box to have any PII is not good enough. And also, Michelle will tell you, when we talk about the construction industry, there is so much focus on physical health and training, organizations need to see mental health just as important. And if you actually take the same steps you take to address your physical health issues or physical health for your employees, and the trainings that you provide certain thinking that in terms of mental health, there are a lot of organizations out there that are able to help, you don’t have to be an expert in it. There is expertise out there. So don’t be afraid to reach out, you have you know, health and safety committees, you have HR support resources I can reach out to to find that help. So don’t be afraid to ask, but the first step is to actually admit that it is an issue and recognize it, and then looking at your data, what’s driving it and come up with some objectives in terms of so what do we want to do? What do we want to achieve? How can we best support our employees to keep them safe and productive at work?

Michelle Walker 11:55

Well, and when we talk about safety, I mean, we, you know, behaving, you know, behavior based safety programs. If somebody’s dealing with either a mental illness, or just a personal crisis, you know, they had, you know, a fight with their spouse last night, and they don’t know, the next time they’re going to see their kids or they’re dealing with a financial issue, their mind is not going to be on the task at hand. And so that’s, you know, you talk about safety incidents, that’s when they happen is when you know, the focus isn’t there. And, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day on the podcast about this, and like he said, if you have a equipment operator that’s going to be out there, you know, moving, you know, equipment, overhead loads over people, if they walk up and tell somebody that they’re physically sick, or that they, you know, had a rough night, the night before, or something like that, due to some like kind of physical thing, they’re not going to put them on that, you know excavator and put them in that high risk. So we need to create the environment where people feel safe to say, I’m not in a mentally safe space today to do this, to, you know, keep people physically safe as well. So it’s also interrelated and connected, and you almost you really can’t talk about safety anymore in a true, comprehensive, caring way, without including the element of mental health along with it.

13:20

And it’s a delicate balance to think I think,

Scott Peper 13:23

you have to be able to provide the tools, but you also can’t force people into them to come, you know, and so you can create all the tools you can create the atmosphere. My personal belief is that if you create the atmosphere, as a leader, or as an employer, you also have to step into and lead the way into the meaning to I think you, you know, it starts at the top. And I think you just abdicate the authority to start to have the meaning. But the very top of the leadership doesn’t step in and be vulnerable to share a story. How can anyone else feel comfortable to do that? Because the truth is, not everyone may have had suicidal thoughts, but everyone’s had a bad day. And everyone’s had a really uncomfortable moment where maybe you didn’t think about committing suicide, but half of those thoughts that you just had, would have triggered someone else to. And so it’s the awareness of that, I think is personally more important than even just the awareness of mental health. I think people need to realize there’s parameters. Everybody’s has the same thoughts. It’s just everybody reacts a little differently to them. I don’t think there’s a lot of people walking around and adulthood that haven’t had some bad issues that made them feel pretty shitty, you know, and just what you go about doing about it is the key. So do you guys focus on that for leadership?

Randy Thompson 14:50

Yes, gotta you’re absolutely right. I haven’t met an organization that’s really being effective in managing mental health without executive leadership championing

15:00

In that cause, and often that’s where it starts. And that’s where it should start to be the leader to be vulnerable and show that vulnerability to make it okay to talk about the power that leadership has in in, in supporting these initiatives is super critical. And often, that’s where I tell, you know, talk to organizations and consult with them on where you need to start, you need to show it, you know, that started at head office, we have large organizations that are decentralized, they often struggle with, well, how do we do this? Right? How do we ensure that everyone is is is, is getting the same types of supports

15:43

across the board, and I often, you know, talk about starting small and start just started head office, right, show the way tested out, and then be able to communicate all the time and cascade, you know, that out to people in the regions so that that support is available, and they know that Geez, you know, if actually asked for help, it’s not going to cost me my job. And actually, it’s actually feels good that someone within the organization, particularly leadership cares about me and my family.

Scott Peper 16:15

Yeah, I think that’s key, because it’s everyone. The other thing is, you can’t make someone talk they’re gonna find out on there, they’re gonna come on their own timeline.

16:25

But knowing the atmosphere, if you remove the barriers to the atmosphere of finally speaking, or finally stepping out of uncomfortableness, you’re more likely to have someone raise their hand and say, Hey, I need help. Or if everyone else knows that, at any given time, your the whole company is going to err on the side of hey, are you okay? Like, they’re all going to err on the Hey, it’s okay to be asked. Okay. And it’s okay to look back and say no, you know, like, if that was just the two things that I think everyone did, like, create the atmosphere leader steps into it. And by the way, this, this whole company is going to have a philosophy of, are you okay? And then the answer can be No, I’m not. Like if that if that was it, you probably find a lot more people more comfortable to speak about it, because

Michelle Walker 17:12

I think the lack of community and family and that being alone is what is a big trigger for this. And if you can do contrary to that, which is create and fill a group of people that can go find that people are going to go find their group, you know, and if you don’t create one to walk into, they’re going to go find the one that’s going to actually pour gas on the problem.

Scott Peper 17:36

Absolutely. That leads me to my next question, which I had, which is related to like social media and the factors of social media out there, kind of leading what I was just talking about, I, I feel as though everyone can go find their group now, you know, and good and bad. And so if you’re having bad thoughts, and you start to live in a social media driven world, you’re gonna find a group that might help you, but you’re more likely going to find a group that won’t, is that that’s my personal feeling. What is that? Do you guys find that as well in the social media world, and how that plays into this?

Randy Thompson 18:17

Michelle, do you want to go.

Michelle Walker 18:21

I mean, I just want to spin off quickly on what you were just talking about before, because I think it’s those it’s those creating those safe spaces for people and hoping that then that’s what they’re going to versus the unsafe spaces, like on social media.

18:34

So, you know, my personal kind of mission statement, how I set up my work in this is compelling contractors to create caring cultures. So creating those cultures where people do feel safe to ask either for help for themselves or for others. And so, you know, as Randy and I were talking, I’m prepping for this session with him, you know, it might not be that everybody on the team is willing to have that conversation with somebody, but if they know, to watch out for things, and then who to talk to so here in our company, people will come talk to me and say, Hey, I’m really worried about so and so this is what’s going on with them.

19:08

And so then I can kind of approach them and watch out for them. But creating those cultures where people are watching out for each other is is such a big important component of it because the person themselves right might not be willing to speak up or, or ask for help, but if they know that other people are watching out for them, that that creates that safe space, that’s so important.

19:29

And then yeah, as far as the social media, I mean, I guess the pluses of it are, you know, it’s a way to share positive information if they you know, if you can get it to people and, and resources and help and, and things like that. So to help them know, they’re not alone. There’s nothing, you know, wrong with them for needing help for accessing care, kind of pointing them to directions. But so I guess as an employer, how you encourage that is sharing out those resources and hopefully, people are going to be kind of following and engaging with those so that they can

20:00

Another avenue for help, if and when needed.

Randy Thompson 20:04

So, oh three Oh, sorry, Randy, go ahead, I was just gonna say, I totally agree, Michelle, and then there’s always a risk with social media, cuz you’re gonna find the good and the bad. My own personal experience going through a critical illness as I’ve used social media for the good and kind of purge the bad because it because it can be there. I think for organizations,

20:30

that makes it even more critical to provide safe spaces for your free employees, whether that be you know, a training program, whether you know, whether that be

20:42

mental health support, whatever that is, but ensuring that the employees know how to access those resources, where to access, you know, when to access them, that makes it super important, because you can have the greatest resources available to stop it, if they don’t, if they can access it, or they struggle with it. Because often it is confidential, then there’s, they’re less apt to use those resources that you’ve, you know, that you invested in, and that you have confidence in and start finding other ways to Scott’s point, you know, to get the support that they need. And sometimes it’s not, it’s not, it’s not what they need. So it’s not just having programs, you know, mental health support available, it’s ensuring that your people are aware on how to access it and what it can do for them. The other thing we talked about, just quickly in suicide prevention and living works, is building not just suicide prevention support within the organization, but the key the critical piece in building it in their communities, right, because that construction worker leaves work everyday goes home to an environment has a family has stresses, anxieties, right. And often people when they when they do kill themselves, it isn’t it is at home. So we talked about building communities of safety, not just having suicide awareness and support within the organization, but at home with their families, or where the where they may go pray, right and having it where that individual may also participate or engage in sports or activities, that kind of thing. There’s a lot, there’s less opportunity for them to go elsewhere to try and find support when it’s just surrounding them. So we kind of look at a talk about a public health approach to suicide prevention, that’s really what we encourage is not just focusing them, you know, that individual at work, but ensuring that there’s support, and that there’s awareness, wherever they work, live, play, eat, you know, within their communities. Sorry, autumn, I can

Autumn Sullivan

No, no, no, no worries. That was a, that was an important point. And it leads into my question, actually, because all three of you have talked about creating safe spaces and communities of caring and communities of safety. And I’m thinking of all the construction business owners I’ve known throughout my life. And it sounds like a very tall order for some of them. Like, I can just see some of them saying I’m not equipped to do this. Like, I also am the big tough guy and stoic and I also don’t so. So what what can what can a construction business owner do just to start creating that that work culture?

Randy Thompson 23:29

Yeah, great, great question. And I’ll refer back to a comment I made around just recognizing that it is an issue, that mental health is an issue within the organization.

23:42

And, and that kind of starts everything.

23:46

Ensuring that there’s support, you know, we talk about upstream, midstream and downstream, right, and that’s really what, what we encourage is ensuring that there’s support, wherever that individual is right, it could be at the beginning of an issue, where you know, we’re able to kind of catch it early and provide that upstream support. Or maybe they’re down, you know, they’re at that suicidal ideation level. And, you know, we need to provide some downstream support as well. So ensuring that you have each level covered, I think is important.

24:16

And reach out there’s, there’s a lot of organizations and Michelle will talk about CISSP and the work we do on the board, but in living works as well as an organization that can support to come and talk to us, right be open to getting help, like we tell people you know, be open to getting help. We have to say that to organizations and leaders as bo we open to the help as well. We know you’re not experts in this field, but there are experts out there who can help consult with you and help build a plan. A mental health plan whether it be that or suicide prevention plan that’s tied to it to ensure that you’re you’re supporting your your your employees and their families at each at each level. Whether it’s upstream, midstream, or down and Michelle, you talk much better to this

Michelle Walker 25:00

Slide can I do so? Please? Well, I think the first thing is just recognizing you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to know about this. And, and you don’t have to be the person who ultimately helps the person through their issues, you have to have the resources available and know how to connect people to that, but it’s really being that connector to care, not necessarily becoming the caregiver. And I think that’s a really important distinction, because there’s a lot of concern among employers, well, I don’t want to get that kind of entrenched in people’s personal things. And plus, I’m just not equipped to help them through all these issues. And so it’s really recognizing you don’t have to be the one that’s actually doing the, the fixing, you have to know how to, you have to have the resources available and be willing to connect them to those resources, is the important part along with being you know, caring and following up and all those things, but but you don’t have to be the actual, you know, doer of the plan.

26:02

And then it’s, it’s starting that conversation. So again, we you know, we’ve talked about that bold leadership support that vocal leadership support for things, and then, you know, making this be something that people start getting a little bit comfortable talking about. So I’m not going to say, become totally comfortable, because it’s, it’s not a totally comfortable topic for for many people to talk about. And especially not in construction company, in the workplace, with your co workers, things like that. So start the conversation. So include it in, you know, company meetings, if you have a newsletter that covers wellness things, you know, including information on mental wellness as part of that, having, you know, in your resources, making sure that information on, you know, suicide prevention, lifeline, crisis support, you know, those types of things are included in the conversation, hanging up posters, so we’ll hopefully at the end, go out to the CISSP website, and you can show you kind of some of the things that are there, but we have posters that you can hang up on your job site, poster boards, you know, just right along with your, you know, OSHA postings and all that

27:06

toolbox talks so that you can talk about it in, you know, as a safety topic. So the one thing that constructions got going for it, and why I think we’ve made the strides that we have in the short period of time versus some other industries that have tried to kind of adopt this at an industry wide level is that we are so safety focused, and this really fits right in with that safety culture, if you if you will be willing to build it in. And so, you know, having it be a part of your toolbox talks, you know, our tha, you know, our morning tests, hazard analysis. JJ, we added on that, you know, Are you mentally ready to work today? So, you’re breathing in that conversation of, it’s more than just, you know, are you physically able? Or do you have a sore back and you shouldn’t be lifting today? things? But are you physically Are you mentally ready and able to be able to work and perform today? And so, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s starting that and just getting people comfortable with it. And I can tell you, it’s not, it’s not easy when you start because the first you know, safety meeting that you’re at, and you say, we’re going to talk about suicide, and you get, you know, a roomful of blank stares kind of staring at you, like you have two heads, and why on earth are you talking to me about this, but over the years, it starts getting easier, and people don’t look at you, like you’re crazy anymore. And they start being willing to talk and share and things like that, and then just building it up to other business practices that are normal. So, you know, a great opportunity is during group health enrollment time, so you know, open are, you know, here, our company open enrollment was in May, our plan renews June 1. And so typically the open enrollment meeting, you go over benefits and you talk about, you know, go to the urgent care instead of the ER because your copay is going to be lower. And if you go to this doctor, it’s this not talk about behavioral health benefits, talk about, you know, if you need to seek behavioral health, this is the directory, this is how to access it, it’s the same copay, as you know, your primary care physician, you know, whatever it is, talk about it as part of the benefits as part of the that that overall wellness thing, that your mental wellness is a part of your overall wellness and, and tried to stop separating that physical and mental wellness component, but really just build it into we care about all of you. And that includes, you know, from head to toe, not just kind of neck down.

Scott Peper 29:27

Do you guys share I would call it success stories, but stories of people who have been in a great environment one that we’re all trying to would like to create that can say, oh, because of this, this, these are things that happen. But because of this environment, I was able to recognize that I felt comfortable raise my hand and I avoided suicide because of XY and Z. Is there a Is there a place to share those stories and are they being shared now?

Michelle Walker 29:58

Well, we would love to have those stories.

30:00

As they aren’t readily shared, just because it is still a pretty sensitive personal topic that people are just kind of getting to the place where they’re willing to share. I personally have some, and I would love to share one here and I, you know, but a young man work for us, kind of off and on for a couple of years. And one day, his manager called me

30:25

again, after me talking about this for several years and, and doing training on warning signs and things. I was actually at home for the day, but he called me and said, Something’s wrong with him. Like he’s, he’s, he’s not, he’s identified, like, he’s just not acting, right. He’s not. He’s not well, he’s, and so I called him into my office, and I asked him, Are you okay? And he just broke down and started crying. And he says, I don’t think that he’s safe. I don’t think he’s safe to go out to work today. I don’t know what to do. I said, keep them there. And I’m on my way. And I came in, and I met with a young man and talk to him. And I had to ask him, and it was the first time that I had to, you know, put the living works training into practice. And I had to say, you know, are you thinking about killing yourself? And he said, I’m not right now. But I have. And I said, Okay, thank you. Thank you for being open. Thank you for sharing that with me. And can I please help get Can I please help you get help? And he said, Yes. And so, you know, we I contact, you know, he was young and single, but he allowed me to call his mom and we talked to his mom together and assured like she, she was meeting up with him so that he wouldn’t be alone. And he would go stay with her. And then, you know, got him connected to help through our behavioral health benefits. And he, he ended up leaving the company a few months later to go on to another opportunity that he was ultimately working for, but he’ll still call every, you know, four or five months or so. And just say, I know, I was there at that moment for a reason, because you, sorry,

31:54

you these, these things are real. And so that’s just one story. That just happened in our little company here. And so I have to believe that, you know, dozens of those stories are happening every day. And if we can get people to share them, I think hopefully, that’s what’s going to compel a lot of people to start taking this action in their organizations. Yeah, you know, hearing that story. And this is why I love the stories to be told because it they relate everybody can relate to a story more than a newspaper or slide presentation.

Scott Peper 32:28

And I think what you what I’ve heard from, specifically from you, Michelle, and the organization that you’re operating in, is you have a culture that has been created in the company, not just for mental health, but your overall culture, I bet your overall culture is pretty positive, I bet you people that come to work there feel like they’re being poured into versus poured out of, they probably don’t feel like they’re a conduit to, to an outcome of success for the business owner only, they probably feel like they’re part of a team, you know, and if you are part of a team, people are going to be more comfortable to help their teammate, if you’re just a cog in the wheel, for the benefit of the few. No one likes that. And so I think that’s where it really starts. And if you then put a mental health meaning into that culture, you’re probably going to find great success. And so it’s no surprise that you do have that story. Because

33:25

it was, it’s probably in front of every company every day, or at least in some fashion over the course of a couple of years. If you’re there long enough, even if you have a small company only, you know, a handful of people.

33:37

This stats are the stats. So you just happen to create an environment where someone could feel comfortable, raise their hand and think about those three or four steps in that story. You created the company, you you educated to it, it was another person who had who had to act, then recognize then create an action actually call you you had to listen and act yourself. And there’s a lot of steps there. And if that wasn’t because you had a mental health meeting and a poster, it was way before that. I think that’s the thing. I’d want anyone listening and paying attention to this, particularly leaders to really pay attention to smile. That’s my thought on that. Yeah, no 100%, right. You can’t think you say this has to be baked in it can’t be bolted on. So you can’t be a company where people are scared to bring up issues or talk or you know, that they’re gonna get in trouble. If they’re walking on eggshells, and suddenly you say, Hey, we care about your mental health and we want to watch out for you. They’re going to have as much trust and reliance in that as you know, there’s not and so, you know, it really has to be part something that’s really baked in and it’s part of a caring culture is absolutely where it starts. Yeah. And when it comes when it comes to suicide prevention in particular, there’s no like there’s no ownership specifically up that right

35:00

within an organization and in fact, the reality is anyone can be a helper, we truly believe that it’s not specifically your manager, you know, or the president or the executive that are responsible for it. When it comes to suicide prevention,

35:16

the organization really needs to own it and understand that anyone can be a helper, it’s the question of what type of helper that person wants to be, some of them are prepared to engage the way Michelle did, right and have that conversation and be able to work a safety plan with that individual. Some people, you know, it’s just too much, it’s overwhelming, because we’re asking them to have conversations that are not natural, right, we don’t often ask someone if they’re thinking of killing themselves, let alone you know, even at home. So it’s important to recognize that it’s, we all own the issue within the organization, from the, you know, labor right to the President. And it’s important to be able to offer some, we talked about support and training for people, because there is a training, important training component, too, it’s not just natural for people to have these conversations, and be able to have safe conversations and build a safety plan with that individuals. So to make it available to everyone is important. So they all feel like they can be a part of it. We’ll talk a little bit maybe later on around

Randy Thompson 36:27

company called Mates in Construction, that is specifically suicide prevention in the construction industry. And it’s about organizations owning their program. It’s not living works. It’s not, you know, sec underground, it’s, it’s that organization who owns it, and everyone within the organization has a role to play in suicide prevention and supporting their mates. So I just want to mention that it’s not, it’s not just leadership that, you know, that should be trained on how to support, it’s Everyone that owns that, and that kind of helps create that caring culture. Yeah.

Autumn Sullivan 37:04

Yeah, I think that’s so important. Because a lot of times, you don’t want to go to your leader, even if you you know, even if you have a good caring culture, in your company, you might, you might have a hesitation to go directly to your boss and tell them that you’re having a mental health crisis, because it because there’s the risk of it having a financial effect on your family, right, like, oh, I won’t be able to work. If I don’t work, I don’t make money. And if I don’t make money, my kids don’t eat. So you just bury it, but you tell your friend, right. And so your friend on the job also needs to know, also has to have some tools and support on how to help you through that moment, and how to get you into the into a plan for safety. Right, they also need to be empowered, so that they can feel like they can handle that moment.

Randy Thompson

Yeah, absolutely. And they need to know who they can go to. Right. So we have to be it creates an openness, right culture of openness, which is important as well. And that has great ripple effect, just in terms of people’s mental health, right, they know, they are safe in that organization in that environment, a lot of construction work, you know, they they go off site, they work remotely for weeks and weeks, right? Where they don’t have immediate access to family are supports. So even more important in those in those locations, that that there’s that there’s support within that site, that they know that they can talk to someone and it’s often not their boss, autumn. So

Autumn Sullivan 38:32

yeah, training needs to be, I think, available for everyone. So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the resources that are available. We have about 15 minutes left, and I want to talk about where where people can go to find resources, what the warning signs are people should be looking for, and then open it up for any questions. So I know you guys have a slide of resources, right? Yeah. Sure. You want to? Did we hit the read the warning signs? I think we had a slide on that, too. I don’t think we’ve gone through them yet. Whichever one you guys want to take first. I just want to make sure we get to both of those. Sure. Yeah. And then we can be and I think the warning signs are, are fairly, some of them are fairly obvious. Some of them are not, but they’re fairly consistent. And there’s a list here, and we often ask, you know, what would you look for in someone but the to me the core is

Randy Thompson 39:22

it what you’re looking for is a change in behavior with that individual, right? Someone might be moody all the time. So having mood swings is no surprise, right? Because Dave’s always like that. But, but Bob isn’t and all of a sudden, you know, Bob who used to be really excited. You know, he was always very engaged as all of a sudden withdrawing from activities. We don’t see Bob very much. So there are different signs that you can look for, you know, you know, someone comes to work disheveled or they’re appearing sad. Clearly there’s something going on there. They’re or they’re depressed. You know, we often see an increase in alcohol or drug use

40:00

with someone who might be dealing with some crisis, but at the, at the end of the day, the core of it to me is, is it’s a change in behavior that you’ve noticed over time.

40:10

And that’s something that could could actually

40:14

click that there’s, there’s something going on there. And that’s where it gets back to that element of community and culture is if you if you have a workplace where those kind of communities are built, and people have enough of a relationship with each other to notice the changes, that’s kind of step one, because it’s hard to recognize changes in somebody if you’re kind of working with a different group every day, and you don’t have any of those established relationships. And then the other element of work of kind of warning signs is again, changes in behavior, but really ones that are tied directly to

Michelle Walker 40:48

their performance at work. So really, you know, decrease problem solving, self confidence, productivity, and then an increase in tardiness, absenteeism, so suddenly, they’re, you know, every Monday they’re off, or they’re coming in late every day with kind of No, no reason, no explanations, increase in conflict increase, you know, we talked before about the safety element increase in your hits, injuries, incidents. So it’s those performance issues. And the really key thing as an employer to recognize as being aware of this and approaching things from the standpoint of instead of instantly addressing it with corrective action, asking why is there this change? Why is this employee who was never late is suddenly late three days a week. And so instead of addressing it instantly, with disciplinary action, asking the question, hey, we’ve noticed this change, is there something going on, that we can help you with that’s creating this and opening up that conversation and allowing them to share, as opposed to if if the first, if the first way that you’re addressing this is, here’s your write up and your final warning, and if you’re late again, you’re fired. Probably that person’s not going to show up the next day. And now you’ve lost any capacity to help that person and probably have X exacerbated what you know, whatever issue they were dealing with. So really taking that

42:05

kind of caring about the person approach and trying to find and understand the underlying issues and root causes versus just dealing with the performance from a disciplinary approach. And there’s we talked about resources, and often come from the world of EPs, and most EPS at their core does offer training, particularly for managers to be able to have those conversations to train them on, what are the signs and symptoms to look for? What are you looking for? What are the performance issues, and how to have a conversation with an employee that shows that you know that you’ve recognized that there’s an issue that you care about them, and that you’re able to lead them to resources, regardless of what it is because you don’t want your managers being the therapist, but you want to ensure that you have the right resources available to that individual to recommend so that they follow up.

Michelle Walker 43:00

So that’s a great lead into resources. So Randy, would you be okay, if I navigated out to the website? Absolutely. Okay.