Episode 162 | Why Owners Get Stuck Between the 4 Stages of Leadership

[00:00] Scott:

Welcome, everybody, to the next episode of the Mobilization Mindset. My name is Scott Peper, CEO and founder of Mobilization Funding, and today, Drew and I are gonna be tackling an interesting topic for all kinds of business owners, the four stages of leadership. Owner, founder, leader, manager, technician, all of those different traits and qualities, and how do you bundle them in to figure out how to run your business? Drew, kick it off, man.

[00:49] Drew:

We’re at it again.

[00:50] Scott:

Yes.

[00:50] Drew:

We’re at it again. I mean, you’re talking about founder, owner, operator, leader, and let’s start at the ground base of a company. I mean, every- you know, you have the founder. At one point the founder is the founder, the operator, the leader, the manager, at one point. But as your company evolves and you gr- grow as a human being, in order to scale and grow your company, you have to replicate yourself. And we can go into the definitions of each one of these, and I don’t think there’s any one definition with each one. Uh, you’re gonna have to replicate yourself and identify within those four or five buckets that we’ve outlined other people to fill those gaps.

[01:28] Scott:

Yeah.

[01:29] Drew:

You know what I mean?

[01:30] Scott:

You know, one of the things I would say to start first is if you are the owner or founder or you’re leading a huge team, regardless of the size of the company, small or large, you gotta realize you’re gonna be playing probably a little bit of all of them. You’re not gonna be great at all four or all five-

[01:47] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[01:47] Scott:

… things, but you’re gonna be, you’re gonna have some that you’re more dominant at and good, and others you’re gonna have to figure out where to learn and how to do that, or find a good other person that can lead or charge-

[01:59] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[01:59] Scott:

… the things you can’t do. But what I think is important to realize is as you’re going through these stages, you gotta give yourself some grace that you’re gonna need to figure out which ones those are-

[02:09] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[02:10] Scott:

… come up with a plan to how to improve those-

[02:12] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[02:12] Scott:

… and identify that, look, if you don’t have great leadership skills yet but you’re doing amazing at the technical part of your job and you’re great at sales and you’re also good at hiring, but you don’t really know how to lead anyone-

[02:24] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[02:24] Scott:

… those are the areas you gotta identify where you start to need to train, because that will be your limiting factor. The business will literally only get to the point that you are yourself.

[02:34] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[02:34] Scott:

And so to the extent your goals are bigger than where you’re at, you gotta fill-

[02:38] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[02:38] Scott:

… that bucket one way or another. Yourself, someone else, either way.

[02:45] Drew:

I’m gonna take a big step back here. I think we got a, I thought, I think we kinda got a little ahead of ourself. What is your definition of leadership?

[02:55] Scott:

I think of leadership as how, your ability to do the things you do and act the way you act, say what you say, and operate in such a manner that it pulls other people along.

[03:11] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[03:11] Scott:

It’s like your way, y- your ability to influence someone through your words and actions, more your actions than anything else, and just how you carry yourself, your presence, um, all of it, the aura, so to speak-

[03:25] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[03:25] Scott:

… such that people are like, “You know what? I, I don’t really know everything that’s been said there, but, like, I’m just gonna go follow that dude.”

[03:33] Drew:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I would agree. I mean, uh, the, this kind of definition keeps on coming to my mind is, uh, do you have the ability to empower other people to do things they wouldn’t normally or wouldn’t be able to normally do?

[03:47] Scott:

Mm-hmm. Right.

[03:48] Drew:

And how do you do that? [laughs] It’s like, that’s a definition, right? Uh, I guess definition of me, but how do you do that? And one thing that I’ve learned here, and particularly from your actions, right, and watching you and listening to you, and listening to a lot of the people that you’ve told me to go listen to and learn from, uh, is leadership is not necessarily about having all the right answers. Um, a big part of my day as president of this company, what I’ve realized, is that where I could plug in and be the, the big, uh, make the biggest impact, is leaning in to every single one of the team members and coaching, teaching, and mentoring them to replicate you or replicate me or replicate, uh, their director, and be able to grow them so that they are then empowered to do things they wouldn’t normally be able to do.

[04:43] Scott:

That’s right. Yeah. Like, if you’re, if you’re sitting here listening to this and you’re thinking like, “Well, some things I just might not wanna share because then, you know, you m- I might lose my ability to be able to do those things,” that’s the wrong way to think about it. If you end up surrounded by a bunch of people that are all way better than you at every single possible thing, that would be, like, the greatest accomplishment on Earth-

[05:05] Drew:

[laughs]

[05:05] Scott:

… as a leader. Um, and I laugh at that ’cause it’s, it’s, it’s probably not all the way possible, but that’s, if that was your goal and everyone was coming up really close to that, you guys would be, like, just … That team, organization, whatever you wanna call it, would just be, like, completely smoking it.

[05:19] Drew:

Mm-hmm. I keep on thinking about these words, leader, uh, founder, operator, you know. Um, I- I think that one question you should ask yourself, and I like your perspective on this, one question you should ask yourself every single day, and I actually told someone on the team this is kinda how I think every day. I mean, I don’t know if I succeed in this, but this is how I think. If I come in here and then leave that day and I ask myself, “Did I move the ball forward on something? Did I improve? Did I make an impact that, that, that pushes this organization or, and individuals towards that mission that we have? Did I do that today?” And sometimes that question, you know, if you a- really, really dig deep, sometimes that que- that answer’s no. Uh, but you want it to be yes more often than not.

[06:09] Scott:

Well, I’ll tell you one thing if we’re gonna talk about that specifically. If you wanna really ask yourself that question, you better already know what the thing is that you just set, set your day upon to figure out what it was that you were gonna move the day forward before you ask yourself that. Because just about anyone can rationalize you moved the ball forward if you’re asking yourself at the end of the day-

[06:30] Drew:

That’s true

[06:30] Scott:

… and you moved backwards and think. Because you probably did move something forward, which ultimately actually probably did move the organization forward, but did you just move it forward in the thing that’s not as important or in the thing that isn’t important for what goal you’re specifically trying to set yourself on, or for the person that you were trying to influence that day? For example, “Hey, I really need to talk to person A today about their behavior on something, and I know I can get them moving in the right direction, and that’s critical to our success because person A runs our entire sales team.”

[07:03] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[07:03] Scott:

“And the longer they keep doing this thing without fixing it, it’s gonna make the entire sales team bad.”

[07:08] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[07:09] Scott:

And you don’t do that, but you talk to person B about something really important that was super empowering to them and made them a better leader, and it was a conversation that was like one of those few you have a year that you can tell are really impactful.

[07:23] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[07:24] Scott:

And now you’re driving home and you’re asking yourself, “Did I help today?” Well, the answer’s yes.

[07:28] Drew:

Of course you did.

[07:29] Scott:

But you really didn’t have a s- day of success as you designed it intentionally.

[07:33] Drew:

You’re talking about that, that one thing, the one more?

[07:36] Scott:

Yeah.

[07:36] Drew:

That concept of-

[07:37] Scott:

It’s like was it on your critical, is it the one thing, or is it-

[07:39] Drew:

The one thing, yeah

[07:39] Scott:

… you know, you set up the day to know that you need to have this thing happen? Because you might have moved the ball with person B, but person A is still sliding down the hill. You had already identified person A as something important to do that day-

[07:50] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[07:50] Scott:

… and if you didn’t get it done, you really aren’t leading yourself to the right intention of what you had, but you still were ef- effective at moving the ball forward that day-

[07:59] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[07:59] Scott:

… by the question you asked. Why I’m bringing that up is they’re all, you have to do all of them.

[08:03] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[08:04] Scott:

But you can also go in every day and, and make an impact, but you might not be making an impact on the things that are directionally where you need to bring the whole organization, and I think that’s the crux of how a lot of leaders of o-

[08:17] Drew:

Mm

[08:17] Scott:

… and owners, as they evolve in their businesses, they don’t do the things that they intentionally need to get done that day-

[08:25] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[08:25] Scott:

… even though they’re still doing a lot of valuable things, and they rationalize that as was a great day, but their business never moves forward. They don’t hit the goals they’re looking to hit. Mistakes keep getting made. People aren’t, um, moving through the organization in the way they needed to be, out or in.

[08:40] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[08:41] Scott:

New vendors, new leaders aren’t being identified. Um, supply chains are broken, and you didn’t fix the supply chain but you had four really good conversations. Well, the supply chain’s broken. That was a item on your list that day. And I think that gets us back to the piece of leadership. You asked, like, what does leadership mean? I think the first thing you have to do, and I’m completely got this from one of my mentors if not both of them, they said, “Leadership first and foremost starts with you and your ability to lead yourself.”

[09:11] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[09:11] Scott:

And the definition of leading yourself is can you keep the promises that you make to yourself?

[09:15] Drew:

Oh, that is, that, uh, how many people [laughs] … Oh, gosh, how many people have you and I talked about who have incredible amounts of potential and you’re like, “This person has so many attributes of a great, could be a great leader or is, you know, could do great things,” but they’re not willing to internally look at themselves, assess themselves, and hold themselves accountable?

[09:38] Scott:

Right.

[09:39] Drew:

I mean-

[09:39] Scott:

They don’t, they want something, but they’re not willing to do what it takes-

[09:41] Drew:

Yeah

[09:42] Scott:

… to get it, and that’s where the crux of it is.

[09:43] Drew:

Yeah. What i- w- you know, you have operator in there. What is your definition of an operator?

[09:50] Scott:

I think an operator has a lot to do with what we just talked about.

[09:52] Drew:

Yeah.

[09:52] Scott:

They, they can directionally understand where the business goes, so they know the critical things that need to happen, and they’re also knowing that that day’s gonna come with problems, fires, things that need to get put out. B- y- you gotta, there’s a d- certain part of your day that you’re gonna have to react to.

[10:07] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[10:07] Scott:

And your ability to react to those, understand what it i- what’s happening right away, assess it, create a plan, make a decision, grab the right people to make a p- make a decision, um, delegate and execute-

[10:20] Drew:

Mm

[10:20] Scott:

… that’s your operator part.

[10:22] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[10:22] Scott:

The planner, leader, founder part is, okay, directionally, here’s where we need to go. These are the things I need to get done today no matter what that directionally move us all forward.

[10:32] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[10:32] Scott:

And operator part executes those-

[10:35] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[10:36] Scott:

… while you also still get all the other things done that you need to get done.

[10:39] Drew:

Mm-hmm. I kind of think of it, you know, from a founder leader perspective. I mean, leadership can apply to all these, but let’s just talk about founder, for example. Visionary, setting the course, putting the direction of the entire ship, going a certain way for enterprise company level reasons, right? Strategic reasons. Manager is the tactical person who implements that company-wide strategy onto the teams, and then the operator is the one who goes and executes that. And then an operator can also be, I mean, that’s the thing. It’s, it’s, it’s a gray area. Operator can also be a manager or a founder. I mean, but you don’t necessarily as a founder wanna perpetually be the operator.

[11:19] Scott:

Well, I think a- as a founder, I think you’re gonna have to do a little of all of it.

[11:22] Drew:

A little of all of it.

[11:23] Scott:

At some point you did, you, if you were the only one standing there, you did them all at some point, so.

[11:26] Drew:

Yeah, that’s why I said in the beginning, you’re o- you know.

[11:29] Scott:

But the visionary, I think you nailed it on the first part. The visionary, you gotta drive at, you gotta know where you’re going. But what the part you didn’t say that is critical is you gotta be able to communicate and articulate to, to everyone-

[11:40] Drew:

Yeah. Mm-hmm

[11:40] Scott:

… and they gotta know what that is, which means you have to say it so many times till you think you’re, like, ready to, like, “I can’t believe I’m gonna say this again. They must be so sick of this,” but you-

[11:49] Drew:

Let’s hit on that. Let’s hit on that for a second

[11:51] Scott:

… but they’re not. Like, they do, some of, some of them, sometimes you might have said it 25 times, and this is the, and for someone in, that’s even really good is still sitting in that room looking up at you, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love that vision.” You’ve said it 30 times-

[12:06] Drew:

I mean, uh-

[12:07] Scott:

… in that month

[12:08] Drew:

… that’s another thing. I, I mean, how many- I do lessons or, or teachings with v- various teams within our company, uh, and I … and there’s only like four or five core things that I, that I focus on. And, you know, the first time I’m like, I’m thinking, “Gosh, I communicated that so well. I mean, they understand it.” Then I’ll ask them about it the next day, and they’re like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” And I’m like, “What, what universe were you in?” And I get so frustrated. But you’ve told me before, no, it’s not their fault. It’s not your fault. It’s repetition. They have to hear it over and over again. And, uh, your leaders out there of, of our construction listeners, that’s the same for you. Your, uh, repetition over and … And if you’re willing to commit to that, then that is a part of what it takes to grow your company and to grow your team.

[12:57] Scott:

You, you bring, you bring up a great point, and this made me think of this. This is why, what you just said is exactly why you have to say it 10, 20 times, 50 times more than you think you do. Like, 10, 20, or 50 times more past the point of where you’re already exhausted saying it. Like, you … Whe- whenever you get exhausted saying it, it’s, it’s another 50 times more than that.

[13:21] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[13:21] Scott:

Right?

[13:22] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[13:22] Scott:

That’s first. Second thing, this is why it’s so critical that the way you act, how you hold yourself, how you behave is even more critical because people are gonna emulate what they’re seeing in your actions and your thoughts.

[13:35] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[13:35] Scott:

And if you’re stating these lessons and then not doing them, like you’re never gonna … You’re just not even-

[13:39] Drew:

No

[13:39] Scott:

… they’re never gonna listen to them.

[13:40] Drew:

Well, that’s what my dad says, “Deeds not words.”

[13:42] Scott:

That’s right.

[13:43] Drew:

Yeah. I mean-

[13:43] Scott:

And, and one of the things that, um, I heard from Ed Mylett-

[13:48] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[13:48] Scott:

… actually directly as it relates to kids, raising kids, is he said, “Scott, don’t worry about your words so much because it’s caught not taught.”

[13:58] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[13:58] Scott:

And I was like, “Oh, wow, okay.” He’s like, “Yeah, they’re watching what you’re doing. They’re seeing … ” Look, you think about it. Think about a one or two-year-old, they can’t even speak. They don’t even understand the words coming out of your mouth, but all of a sudden they learn how to walk, they learn how to grab stuff, they learn how to say mom, they learn how to say dad.

[14:10] Drew:

Probably why my daughter always wants treats, you know? [laughs]

[14:13] Scott:

Yeah, treats.

[14:13] Drew:

Like, I tell her treats aren’t good for you-

[14:15] Scott:

Yeah

[14:15] Drew:

… but, I mean, she sees me eat treats.

[14:17] Scott:

And, and he’s like, “Look, think about that in business. It’s the same thing.”

[14:20] Drew:

Yeah.

[14:20] Scott:

We learn that same way. We don’t ever change our learning.

[14:22] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[14:22] Scott:

So if anything, words become more confusing sometimes.

[14:26] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[14:26] Scott:

But at what you see someone do, particularly if you like it, you’re gonna emulate it.

[14:32] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[14:32] Scott:

Especially if you like it and it creates a result that’s also aligned to something they, you want-

[14:36] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[14:36] Scott:

… you’re gonna even emulate that more.

[14:38] Drew:

So the last thing, and we’re gonna close out this podcast here in a second, but the last thing I, I want to hit on be- is the opportunity, right? You, Scott, have, um, experienced your career within a large, you know, medical device company, right? Um, primarily as a producer, seller.

[14:55] Scott:

Mm-hmm.

[14:56] Drew:

Um, you’ve been in management positions in those companies. You then are the founder of Mobilization Funding. You have zero employees. You then start hiring employees. You then start growing, growing your team. Operator, manager, founder, leader. There are stages there where you have to let go of things, lean into some things. What has been, been the biggest challenge for you where you’re at right now as a founder, visionary leader, m- uh, that you are like, “I got to let that go. I got to, I got to be able to let other people do that. I got to get out of the weeds so I can look at the bigger picture. I don’t know what the problem is.” But what has been your biggest challenge?

[15:39] Scott:

You know, I don’t know if there’s one, but I can give you one specifically that I think is big and important-

[15:44] Drew:

Perfect

[15:44] Scott:

… and it goes way. And I learn … We’ll call this the David Schmidt lesson, so if he’s listening, this is, this is all for him. When … And we’re going back to 2006. I’m a sales rep with AngioDynamics. I’m becoming, I’ve, have built this great book of clients here in, in the market, and I’m hiring my replacement as I take on the manager role, managing the same area but more now, right?

[16:10] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[16:11] Scott:

And I hire this gentleman, David Schmidt, great guy, salt of the earth, awesome dude, but he and I vastly are different in many ways, particularly with how we might go about saying something, selling something. And what was really difficult was giving up, so especially me back then, this is 21 years ago, giving up, like, what I would communicate, how I communicate to these customers. Now I’m watching, I’m traveling with him.

[16:32] Scott:

I’m watching him communicate to them and-

[16:35] Drew:

I can imagine how it’s going

[16:36] Scott:

… I, I just, I just couldn’t even, like, I even went to David, “No, no, don’t say that. Oh my God, say this. He doesn’t like … “

[16:40] Drew:

Yeah.

[16:40] Scott:

You know, and it’s, it was just bad. Me. But the reality is he crushed my territory, doubled up the sales over the course of the same two years, won, won rep of the year, and w- and has an ama- and has an amazing career there and, and other places. And what I learned from that is there’s more than one way to do something that produces an equal or better result. And I tried to remember that the rest of my career as I became a rep or manager-

[17:06] Drew:

Mm-hmm

[17:06] Scott:

… or s- or executive leadership or whatever. And realizing for me what often happens, particularly in sales, it’s better for me not to watch or hear it because it’s gonna be different. It’s not what I was gonna say necessarily or the order of words.

[17:19] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[17:19] Scott:

But it still can have a great result if you know the person’s, like, heart and intention and, and what they’re trying to do is the exact same.

[17:26] Drew:

Mm-hmm.

[17:26] Scott:

If they can emulate that, then in their own way, it’ll, it’ll still be effective.

[17:31] Drew:

[laughs] I’m just, I’m just recalling some instances of you and I together on calls, uh, [laughs] the first couple months we were together. I remember one time you just looked at me and you go … Like, didn’t even put the f- uh, teams meeting on mute, and you’re like, “Dude, let him talk.” [laughs]

[17:48] Scott:

[laughs] Yeah.

[17:48] Drew:

I was like, “Yeah, all right. Good.” It was a big lesson. And now I just gave the advice to one of our sales folks. He said, “What advice can you give to me?” And I said, I’m not gonna say his name, but I, I said, “You’re doing great. You’re doing great. Uh, the one piece of advice I’d give you, talk less and ask more questions.”

[18:05] Scott:

Yeah.

[18:05] Drew:

And I, you know, I learned that from, “Dude, let him talk.”

[18:09] Scott:

I remember that day too. [laughs]

[18:10] Drew:

On that, we’re gonna close.

[18:12] Scott:

All right, everybody. I hope you found this valuable. Look, man, it’s not easy road. Give yourself some grace. There’s a lot … Hopefully, you grab some pieces of information out of this. You can see the different phases and stages you need to be in. Regardless of where you are, you can make this too. Start with yourself. Lead yourself first. Just if you do nothing else from this entire podcast that we talked about, just keep the promises you make to yourself. Identify the two, three, four things that you need to do that day to move your ball forward.

[18:41] Scott:

Do them and you’ll be amazed at h- the momentum you can, um-

[18:46] Drew:

The momentum you can generate.

[18:47] Scott:

Yeah.

[18:47] Drew:

Yeah. I got you.

[18:48] Scott:

I was gonna say, you’ll be amazed at the momentum you create, and not only how you can create it, but keep it and maintain it. If you like this, please share it. Pass it along. We also have many, many more episodes on our YouTube channel or mobilizationfunding.com. And until next time, have a great week and may God bless you. [outro music]